tenlittlebullets | Allow me a moment of linguistic geekiness here.

I don't know if this was originally in Wilbour or if it's Fahnestock and MacAfee's fault, but "Orestes Fasting and Pylades Drunk" is a fucking shitty translation. Seriously, I want to slap whoever's responsible for that. How many people reading the book have gone "...bwuh? What the fuck is 'Orestes Fasting' supposed to mean?"

The original French is "Oreste à jeun et Pylade ivre," which, fuck you Charles Wilbour, is more appropriately translated as "Orestes Sober and Pylades Drunk." At least, if à jeun corresponds as closely to nüchtern as I think it does, it very technically means 'fasting' as in not having eaten, but more idiomatically, sober, clearheaded, or matter-of-fact. Yes, the pun is lost if you translate it as 'sober.' But at least it fucking makes sense.

This post brought to you by the ire of an amateur linguist and the incestuousness of European languages. I'll drink to that.

(And yes, in case you were wondering, that does mean my screen name is a translative brainfart.)

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Re: Wilbour -- Yes. It appears as Orestes Fasting and Pylades Drunk in his translation.

Suddenly things make a lot more sense.

... hahah, yes, it does make sense. Jeûner as a verb means "to fast" -- hence the term déjeuner, lunch, breaking fast (with petit déjeuner meaning breakfast). However, as you say, look what English-French Webster says..

sober
(adjectif)
sobre.• sérieux.• posé.• à jeun (ne pas être ivre).

And here I figured it had something to do with this...

An insurgent called to Enjolras, "We're hungry here. Are we really going to die like this without eating?"

Still leaning on his battlement, without taking his eyes off the far end of the street, Enjolras nodded.

Know what makes me angry, though? The way they STOLE A LINE from "Night Begins to Gather over Grantaire".

In defense of the flexibility of the English language, however, "fasting" can be taken to mean more than just not eating... it can also mean abstaining from drink, sex, or anything really. So doesn't that fit Enjolras rather nicely? It's not just that he's sober, it's that he doesn't partake in any of those fleshly pleasures at all.

Maybe "Orestes Abstaining" would be a better phrase, what do you think?

Of course, don't ask me, I'm not that far in the book yet. I did skip ahead and read the introductions of Les Amis, though. Yey.

True, but I think it was meant to be a pun in multiple ways: fasting in the sense that the insurgents hadn't eaten in over a day, sober in the sense that he doesn't drink while Grantaire is completely plastered, and an additional connotation of being calm, serious, clearheaded, etc., which in the context of the chapter is probably the primary meaning. "Sober" does carry that connotation, but "fasting" in English doesn't. Which is why it's a shitty translation. Part of the beauty of that chapter is that Enjolras faces pretty much the worst catastrophe imaginable head-on and completely without hysterics or histrionics--the fact that he's not drunk and hungry is incidental.

If you don't mind curling up in the corner and bawling for an hour, totally skip ahead to that chapter. *flail*

Aha, I see. Nevermindthen. :-)

Oh god no... I've already been crying over poor Cosette, and we're only 150 pages in or so. And I accidentally read Jean Prouvaire's death already because I was being an eediot and playing with the online version, and that set me off for DAYS.

I'll be wandering around with red eyes and a lot of kleenex for the next eight weeks.

Yeah, I know, when I'm reading that book the most random lines will suddenly make me start weeping. I don't think I've encountered any in the reading so fa--no, wait, I think I sniffled when the bishop asked G. for his blessing. And probably when he told Valjean that his name was "brother."

For some reason Fantine's plight doesn't make me want to cry, but some of the commentary on it does. The chapter entitled Christus Nos Liberavit, something Valjean says after he's ordered Javert to release her, and, much later, Hugo's aside as to how she was buried. Just makes me dissolve into tears.

Hey, speaking of translation issues, could you possibly be a dear and look up in your spiffy French edition the last sentence of the last chapter of Book IV, "The Year 1817", and tell me what it says? In the Fahnestock/McAfee translation it's "...she had given herself to Tholomyès as to a husband, and the poor girl had his child." I was wondering if the ambiguity of the last part of this sentence and the implications thereof about Tholomyès and his character (or what we are supposed to believe about him) comes from Hugo himself or if it's just the translators being unclear.

The French is "elle s'était donnée à ce Tholomyès comme à un mari, et la pauvre fille avait un enfant."

I think this signifies clearly that the child's already been around for a while, not "and the poor girl bore his child after the whole thing blew up." But my idiomatic command of French kind of sucks (hence why I had to go through German to get a decent translation of "à jeun" XD), so I don't really know.

In any case, Hugo very clearly meant for Cosette to be about two years old by the time Tholomyès left. I kind of wish he'd left this in.

Ah, I see -- it is clearer in the French, then? I'm absolving Victor of all blame for this, then. As for you, Fahnestock and McAfee: >:-(

Wow, I love that deleted-scene! Tholomyès still got a lot better than he deserved, but... well, very nice. Thanks for the link. :-D

I don't knowwww. XD You'd have to ask a more fluent French speaker. I think "to have a child" in the sense of "to bear a child" (i.e. "she had given herself to him, and she bore his child [later]" instead of just having a child with her) would be "porter un enfant," not "avoir un enfant." But I'm not sure.

Hahaha, that scene was a total bitch to translate. I really have no right to yell at Wilbour over "Orestes fasting," because I completely wrote over an untranslateable metaphor about oranges, did not succeed in finding a graceful translation for the repeated use of "s'y connaître," and butchered the mildly brilliant "engager des querelles de charbonnier avec les gens vêtus de blanc." Oh well.

Ah, well. I liked it. I'm impressed at your ability to translate so well and keep the tone of the scene so nice and constant. Whenever I translate, it comes out all flat and awkward-sounding, so I salute you for your grace with the language, anyway. :-D

Ah, yes....I did have a severe problem with being depressed for weeks after reading the barricade chapters...and bawling my eyes out several times ^^;

FUCK YES. Now it makes sense. thankyou! XD

*raises hand* I totally did the "wtf" thing when I read "Orestes fasting". Thanks for translating it properly. *gets it now*

Allow me a moment of linguistic geekiness here.

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